On the 'Art of Interviewing' by Malcolm Gladwell (3-2-1 by Story Rules #116)


It's been a busy couple of weeks on the work front, and I'm looking forward to a quieter period in the next week or so. There's a bunch of work to be done on the book (which is being copy-edited as of now). Then I have an idea for a new course which I'm super excited about...And then there's another major project... uff, too many things to do, too little time. (Hazaaron Khwahishein aisi...!)

And now, on to the newsletter.

Welcome to the one hundred and sixteenth edition of '3-2-1 by Story Rules'.

A newsletter recommending good examples of storytelling across:

  • 3 tweets
  • 2 articles, and
  • 1 long-form content piece

Let's dive in.


𝕏 3 Tweets of the week

Interesting points by the AI Guru himself.

Makes me think - "I have managed people. And I can teach. This should be easy".

Now the only thing is to do some actual serious work with the damn AI thing,


The ol' consultant in me always loves a good 2x2 chart. This one makes a good point.


Whoa, that's some fall in China (and rise in Pak) numbers.


πŸ“„ 2 Articles of the week

​a. 'Brain Drain' by Scott Galloway​

Prof. Galloway brings his storytelling genius to the reverse brain drain happening from the US due to Trump's policies.

He uses a historical reference and uses the powerful analogy of a 'the greatest yard sale of human capital' since WW-II:

The administration is attacking science and slashing research funding at universities under the false flag of fighting antisemitism. The demands are more thought control than civil rights. An assault on progressive ideology vs. bigotry. The results could be devastating: The river of knowledge may flow in reverse. Loath to get in the way of an adversary making a mistake, global competitors are eagerly shopping at the greatest yard sale of human capital since German scientists bolted for America in World War II.

To add some credibility, he quotes a senior political leader:

The governor of Massachusetts, Maura Healey, said: β€œChina is on our campuses right now” recruiting scientists and faculty members. β€œThat makes America less safe, less competitive, and has tremendous ripple effects for our economy.”

Galloway uses a smart football analogy:

Imagine a football team that receives not one, but 31 of the 32 first-round draft picks. Every year. Now imagine the owner harasses the rookie quarterback, cleans out his locker, and threatens to have him and his family arrested and deported, sending a chill through the ranks of promising college players.
That would be … not smart.

And ends with a personal observation:

America has become the textbook definition of snatching defeat from the jaws of victory. I was in Hamburg last week presenting at the OMR Festival (Online Marketing Rockstars), and the general vibe is bewilderment: How could a superpower be this stupid?

​

​b. 'What Jobs Are Affected By AI?' by Simon Sinek (4 min YouTube Video)

For a change, this one is a video, but Sinek makes a powerful point about the role of editing in the AI-age.

He starts with the point that AI will not lead to 'all jobs being lost' and refers to doomsday-scenario building at the time of the launch of the internet in the late 1990s:

...when the internet showed up and people predicted the end of bricks and mortar, that there would be no more bricks and mortar stores. All shopping would be online. Well that didn't happen. Turns out people like browsing and trying things on. Now there are challenges to those bricks and mortar staying open from a strictly numbers standpoint, but we like going shopping you know, we're hunter gatherers and so those predictions were completely wrong.

He makes an interesting point that while manufacturing automation replaced a lot of blue-collar workers, the AI age will reduce white-collar work:

AI is not going to replace the baggage handler at the airport, AI is not going to replace your plumber to fix your toilet... it's not going to build your house right. Blue-collar work is about as strong as it can be in the AI world. Where it's going to affect is the knowledge economy. There's going to be a lot of knowledge work that will be replaced by AI.

Within white collar jobs, the nature of skills required will change. Instead of writing, the editing part will become more important:

I do think that that jobs will switch... so for example, in my world the writer is the king and the editor is like meh you know. And I think that'll completely flip I think... AI can write a shitty first draft of a press release, but you need a person to edit it and so I think editors, people with good editorial eyes are going to become heroes

🎧 1 long-form listen of the week

​a. 'The Joe Rogan Intervention' on the Revisionist History podcast by Malcolm Gladwell​

In this episode, Gladwell gives a masterclass on the art of interviewing by pointing out some shortcomings in the way Joe Rogan (the world's most popular podcaster) conducts his interviews.

This episode is devoted to the last art of the interview, because some of us apparently have forgotten how to ask questions.

Gladwell refers to an intervew by Joe Rogan of Robert F Kennedy Jr. (RFK Jr) a known anti-vaxxer. In that interview, RFK Jr. makes a claim that the 1918 Spanish Flu (one of the biggest viral epidemics of all history) was not caused by a virus, but by a bacteria. And then he (RFK Jr) cites a paper from Anthony Fauci (a respected US scientist and pro-vaccine person) in his support.

Here's the line from the Fauci paper (that RFK Jr relies on to make his conclusion about the bacterial nature of the illness):

...the majority of deaths from the 1918-1919 influenza pandemic likely resulted directly from secondary bacterial pneumonia caused by common upper respiratory tract bacteria.

Did you notice a key word that RFK Jr missed out?

It's 'secondary'.

Here's Gladwell:

In the absence of a viral infection, what would your odds of having a bacterial pneumonia be? ...They are occurring only because of the heightened susceptibility of the host, having had the viral pneumonia to begin with.

So, RFK Jr misunderstood Fauci's paper. But what about Joe Rogan? Here's where Gladwell has his issue:

Rogan is a very smart guy. He's one of the biggest podcasters in the world. Rogan does mixed martial arts for fun. He's not afraid of anyone. Yet, RFK Jr. goes on his show and says something so dumb that you couldn't get away with it in a high school biology class. And what did Rogan do? He just sighed and moved on.

Gladwell then talks about three kinds of human interactions - conversations, interviews and the interview as a performance.

The most natural form of human interaction is the conversation. Two people talking, unscripted, improvised. It ends when it ends. The roles of listener and talker are fluid...
An interview is very different. It's two people talking with a purpose. One person asks questions of another with the intention of revealing something of consequence.
Conversation is easy and natural. Interviewing is an acquired art.
But you know what's even harder? Performance. The interview conducted for the benefit of someone else, an audience. This is what Oprah does better than anyone else.

Gladwell then cites a great example of Oprah conducting an interview (with Meghan Markle) and how she gently gets her to reveal something of significance:

I've been interviewed by Oprah before, and let me tell you, when she sees a moment coming, she climbs inside your head and starts to direct traffic.

(Haha, 'climbs into your head and starts directing traffic' - such a lovely visual metaphor).

My favourite part of this episode, however, occurs at the end - when Gladwell is on a book tour and is being interviewed by psychologist Dr. Michael Gervais.

The conversation veers to Gladwell's parents and then to his father (who is no more). Gladwell wells up in emotion and shares something beautiful about grief:

He's been gone five years. And..., two friends of mine said two very beautiful things that I've always remembered. One... said, my father died 20 years ago today. And I know him better today than I did back then. And I think about that nearly every day, because I think I know him better now.
​
And another thing a friend of mine said in trying to console me was that grief is the way we keep someone alive.

My normal podcast listening speed is 1.5-2x. But with Gladwell, I slow it down to normal speed. The way he builds the narrative, his evocative choice of words, his voice and delivery, the pauses, the music, uff... It's a stunning performance.

Malcolm ends the episode with a comment by Dr. Michael Gervais (his interviewer) and says "There you go, that's how it's done." referring to the art of the interview.

I'd use this podcast episode as an example of narrative storytelling and say, "There you go, that's how it's done."


That's all from this week's edition.

​Ravi

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Ravishankar Iyer

A Storytelling Coach More details here: https://www.linkedin.com/in/ravishankar-iyer/

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